Radical Personal Finance Episode 284-Job Free: Four Ways to Quit the Rat Race and Achieve Financial Freedom on Your Terms-Interview with Jake DeSyllas

Most of us in the Radical Personal Finance community are pursuing our own financial independence. And most of us want to get there as quickly as possible!

But, most of us only have one idea of one way to get there. Did you know there are a bunch of different ways to go job-free and gain financial freedom!

I’m excited to bring you my interview with Jake Desyllas, author of “Job Free: Four Ways to Quit the Rat Race and Achieve Financial Freedom on Your Terms.”

If you have any interest in ever being financially free, this book is a must-read book. (And this interview is a must-listen interview!)

Jake has done an incredible job of distilling all the plans and strategies available into a simple, clear framework that you can use to design your ideal financial freedom plan.

Enjoy!

Joshua

View Transcription

Today in Radical Personal Finance, we talk with Jake Desyllas and we talk about his brand new book called Job Free: Four Ways to Quit the Rat Race and Achieve Financial Freedom on Your Terms. If you’re interested in achieving financial independence and financial freedom, this is a must listen to interview and a must read book, because you need to know your options before you begin. This is a great place to start.

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:38] JS: Welcome to the Radical Personal Finance Podcast. My name is Joshua Sheats and I’m your host. Thank you for being with me today. Today, we got a good one for you. We love to talk about financial independence on the Radical Personal Finance Podcast, love to talk about all the different ways that you can accomplish this goal but I always in the past was kind of missing the framework. I didn’t quite have the framework. Well, Jake Desyllas gives us the framework and we’ve got to choose your own adventure so you can decide what’s right for you.

I first saw Jake give this four options in a presentation a long time ago and I asked him to come on and do an interview but he wanted to wait because he was writing a book on the subject. Well that book is out. Now I’m thrilled to bring the interview and the discussion to you. You’re going to enjoy the content today because we’re not just talking about the book, we’re talking about the subject. So in many ways today’s show will serve as a little mini-course. A mini course on the different options that you have.

So many people get fixated on their one way that they know of to create financial independence and they forget about the other options and I think Jake has done a great job of bringing together all of your different options so that you could figure out which path is going to fit you. Most of us are pursuing this goal of financial independence and financial freedom, I am, but we’re probably pursuing it in different ways. It will be valuable I think to you too to know the different ways.

[SPONSOR MESSAGE]

Before I play the interview for you, we’ll cover the sponsors for today’s show. Sponsor for today number one is TradeKing. TradeKing is the official brokerage sponsor of Radical Personal Finance. Basically, it works like this, if you have any interest in trading stock or if you have any interest in creating your own super cheap portfolio, open an account with TradeKing.

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Thank you to the sponsors and now, here is the interview with Jake.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:03:44] JS: Jake, welcome back to Radical Personal Finance.

[0:03:46] JD: Hi Joshua, it’s a pleasure to be here.

[0:03:48] JS: So first question is, I see — we were talking on Skype, I see from your Skype location that you are in Panama City, Panama right now, is that right?

[0:03:57] JD: Yep, that’s right, in sunny Panama and loving it here.

[0:04:01] JS: So a quick personal update, as I understand it, you and your girlfriend, you guys have sold everything, you digitized everything, you hit the road and you’re doing the full time vagabond thing, is that right?

[0:04:13] JD: Yep, that’s it. It’s been a progressive project over the last couple of years. We started spending six months abroad each winter to get away from the cold of England and we were coming back to England and we just decided, “You know, let’s just go for it, and sell the flat, get rid of all of our stuff and slow travel the world.” And so that’s what we’ve chosen to do. It’s been a really liberating process.

I’ve learned a huge amount through getting rid of all my stuff and becoming minimalist and choosing this lifestyle and the first place that we’ve chosen is Panama and we actually got here and we like it so much that we’re going to stick around here for a while and check it out more because there’s just so much going on here. It’s really dynamic, it’s an amazing city and it’s very much a place with a lot of innovation and entrepreneurship and growth and so yeah, that’s where we’re calling home for the moment.

[0:05:10] JS: So, I was picturing that you’ve gone on a multiple country tour but you flew from England to Panama and there you stay.

[0:05:18] JD: Well yeah because our plan has always been not really to go from hotel to hotel but rather to actually live in different countries for at least six months and then see how we feel and then move on from there and so, we’re doing slow travel because that way, you really get to feel what it’s like to live somewhere. You get to meet people locally and actually experience life in a place.

Otherwise it can all become a bit of a blur and that was our experience when we were staying in Mexico. We were staying in places for at least a couple of months, sometimes longer. One year, we went from place to place every couple of months. In another year, we just stayed in one place for six months.

So that’s the way that we like to do it because it gives us more of an insight into what life is like in different places and so the first place is going to be Panama and you know we’re just going to play it by ear and see how it goes.

[0:06:11] JS: When I read travel logs, it seems that people who go out on traveling that the first six months or a year, they just go, go, go and then if they’re still on the road, they start to slow down and say, “Why did it go so fast?” So maybe it’s just the personality thing. At the moment I’m like, “How would you stay in one city when there are so many places to go?” But you’re past that initial frantic phase and you’re into the regular phase it sounds like.

[0:06:34] JD: Yeah, the first time we did a couple of long term travel trips, we were doing more of the frantic phase. We went all the way down through Latin America through Argentina and then back out through Chile and it was great. It was really good fun, but it’s more of a holiday than living and we both have lots of things that we want to be getting on with as well.

My wife runs a personal development website and I’m writing and doing my podcast and stuff. So that’s the plan, it’s to actually experience life on the ground and we’ve really met some really nice people here in Panama so it’s definitely working out the way we like it.

[0:07:10] JS: Final question, practically speaking, so if you’re staying that much time, what does selling all your stuff mean? I mean how many suitcases do you have? Do you have things that you’re shipping from each house or are you really still in the “we only have a couple of suitcases worth of stuff” phase?

[0:07:25] JD: No we’re down to two bags each. So one hold luggage bag and one cabin bag and everything I own fits in those two bags and so we just got rid of everything and it was incredibly liberating because I realized travelling that most of the stuff we were putting in storage I didn’t even think about, I didn’t miss and we’re obviously renting furnished places and you can rent great apartments with all the furniture that you need and everything.

We’re staying in a place that has a pool and has everything that we could need for a nice comfortable life here. But all of my photographs and my data and my projects, they all live in the cloud now anyway or in encrypted drives in the cloud or in places that I can access from the Internet and so really, we just have some clothes and our laptops, that’s it.

[0:08:19] JS: It is great. I’ve listened to some of your shows in the practical things you learned of downsizing and we’ve made a lot of progress in our family. We sold our big house, got rid of a lot of stuff there and I’ve got a giant bin full of photos and I keep thinking, “Okay, I’m going to follow through and get all of these things digitized?”

I’ve got a giant bin of old CD’s and I got to go through and digitized and get rid of all that stuff and my CD’s aren’t even the music which is easy. If it were just music, I’d just dump them. They are all personal development stuff which is a little harder to stream on Pandora. But it’s inspiring and who knows? Maybe we’ll join you some day.

So I want to talk about this book that you have recently published. I’m very excited for it. I remember you gave a speech on this topic and I had reached out to you, I guess it was a year ago now, and I said, “Listen, I want to interview you specifically on the topic,” and you said, “Wait for the book.” So the book is here and so we can do it. So what’s the name of your book and what’s it about?

[0:09:11] JD: So the book is called Job Free and it’s about four ways to quit the rat race, achieve financial freedom on your own terms and so what I’m doing is really describing different approaches to getting out of unfulfilling jobs and finding a way to live free of jobs and that’s the sort of aim of the book. It’s to really provide an overview of the different approaches that you can take both based on my own experience, having gone through entrepreneurship and building and selling a business, and also based on all the people I’ve interviewed who found different ways to live job free.

[0:09:49] JS: I love the topic and I wish I’d written the book, I’m just going to steal it from now on. It’s on my required reading list. I think your brain and my brain works similarly in some ways where we like to categorize things and what annoys me about the finance world is people always say, “This is the way you have to do it,” and I look at it and say, “Well, that’s one way and that can work well for this type of person in these circumstances, but here’s another way which can work better.”

And I think that’s what you have effectively done with this book is you have outlined, “Here are the four different ways to quit the rat race and achieve financial freedom on your terms and you can choose which of these is appropriate for you to your advantages and disadvantages.” So the book is a perfect introductory text for anyone who is interested in figuring out the different approaches and then figuring out what’s right for them. So what are the four ways to actually accomplish this goal of quitting the rat race?

[0:10:48] JD: Right, so the four ways that I’ve found — I mean everyone’s journey is different and I’ve interviewed a lot of people in my podcast and read different people’s stories and some people combine different approaches. But I think it’s helpful to think of four fundamental approaches that you can take bits from.

So the different approaches that I found are, I call them extreme saving, which is very much in the tradition of the sort of Joe Dominguez, Your Money or Your Life. You have a job and you save and save more than 50% ideally 75% until you can get to the point of financial independence. And then you live job free because you can just quit your job and live from your investments. So that’s one approach but there are other approaches too.

I mean there’s an approach called un-jobbing which is an approach which is to say, “Well, I don’t want to work for somebody else. I don’t want a job that’s unfulfilling. I want to do work that is meaningful to me and that I find fulfilling every day that brings me joy and happiness,” and sometimes, that kind of work doesn’t pay as much as a job that is less fulfilling.

So people who take the un-jobbing route are often freelancers or they have multiple side hustles and different projects that they choose often to live very frugally in order to do work that really brings them joy. And that way, it’s not really like a job. So that’s the second one.

The third one is really the idea of having a lifestyle business and this is where you chose to develop a business that’s going to give you income so that you have the freedom to live as you choose. And a lot of people who choose location independent lifestyles and have online businesses that give them an income and allow them to not have to go to work every day, not have to commute and all those things but just live from that kind of income choose this approach, and property would be another typical example of a lifestyle business.

And lastly, is the idea of having a startup and this was my route. That’s where rather than build a business that is going to just give you income often as a soloprenuer, which is what a lot of the lifestyle entrepreneurs are, a startup is where you’re really focusing on building a value in the business. You’re building an enterprise that’s going to grow, that’s going to have a massive impact and ultimately it’s going to have value as a business so that you can potentially one day sell your business and then use that financial independence to give you the freedom to do whatever you want with your time.

So those are the four different routes. It’s basically extreme saving, un-jobbing, lifestyle businesses and startups.

[0:13:28] JS: I want to hang some example on these so people can understand, I’ll do the first one and you’ll do the next three to try to just mention some examples of popular media personalities. The first one is the dominant theme in this kind of personal finance early retirement financial independence space, the extreme saving. So you mentioned Joe Dominguez, Vicky Robins with — I just blanked on the book.

[0:13:49] JD: Your Money or Your Life?

[0:13:50] JS: Yeah, Your Money or Your Life, also popularized, Mr. Money Mustache, the leading figure in the online space, Jacob Lund Fisker, Early Retirement Extreme, also guest that we’ve had on the show, many, many guest from this situation ranging from Joe Arebelspy from the Money Mustache forum, we’ve just had him on. Many, many of my guest have been in this extreme savings perspective where everything is based upon the savings rate. I feel like this one is currently over represented. Give some examples of popular or somewhat known personalities that fit the other three categories.

[0:14:29] JD: Sure, well I mean let’s take for example lifestyle businesses. I mean I think this is really where you see things like Tim Ferriss’ The 4-Hour Work Week was a book that was highly influential in getting people to think about this type of approach and a lot of people use that book even though Tim himself did various things including selling business.

He really popularized this idea of focusing on having a business that’s going to give you income so you can live as you want and the approach has been taken by a lot of the people who pursue sort of travel based entrepreneurship. There’s a book called Building a Freedom Business and the author’s name actually slips my mind for a moment. But there’s different people who have taken that approach so that’s lifestyle businesses.

Then if you think about startups, my experience is through building a startup but a person who’s really written a nice book about that approach is Derek Sivers and he built the business CD Baby and eventually sold it for $20 million and he now lives from the income that he made from selling that business and does various other projects.

And so that’s some examples there, but there’s also this things called un-jobbing and there’s lots of people living sort of un-jobbing style lifestyles. The person I think is really most representative of this is a guy called Michael Fogler who actually wrote a book called Un-Jobbing and he writes about his own experience.

He was trained as a classical guitarist and he tried for many years to get a job as a teaching position as a classical guitarist and he found after many years that he hadn’t been able to get a full time appointment doing that but he’d made money just doing lots of other things, various side hustles and part time work and this and that.

Eventually, he realized that he just didn’t want a full time job and so he pursued that lifestyle living as frugally as he could so that he could then pursue things that were meaningful to him and he did various things. He was a peace activist and then he did some writing and various sort of things that brought him fulfillment.

[0:16:36] JS: The startup idea I think is the most historically popular. This was the way that, when I was young and I was talking with my brothers about how are we going to get rich, it was like, “Okay, we’re going to build a business,” and then as you said, Ferriss did more to popularized the idea of the lifestyle business.

Just build a business that’s big enough but it’s on flexible terms to anyone else, that’s well developed. Then extreme savings has been somewhat developed especially over the last few years with the rise of personal finance blogs. This un-jobbing one, this is still I think, not the black hole but this is the one that I don’t really connect with very, very much.

I guess the closest I get is sometimes when I read books on how to sail full time and they talk about pulling to port and do this little deal here and do this little deal there. Are people talking about this as an attractive option?

[0:17:30] JD: Well, I think it really depends on what is important to you. For me and I think for a lot of your listeners too, financial independence is something that I thought was a really important goal to have, to know that I could have the financial independence to do whatever I wanted with my time.

The downside of un-jobbing is that you don’t have that financial independence, so you’re going to have to continue making a living somehow through the process of un-jobbing but there are lifestyles like that that you described that some people want to travel and they choose to go and work on cruise ships or whatever because that gives them the lifestyle that they want to do other things like travel that they find fulfilling.

Or people who work as musicians or in jobs that you may not actually be earning as much as you could in other ways but you find it fulfilling then that’s fine. The other way to think about it I think you could be a very successful in un-jobber if you have highly valued skills and you’re able to freelance, you know, if you have good connections with an industry.

A friend of mine worked for many years as a management consultant and he loved the work. He found it very fulfilling but it’s one of the industries where it is totally full on. You work very long hours, you work very intensively and you do earn fairly good money as an employee but what he found was that when he had enough industry contacts, he was able to get to the point where he could do freelance work on his own as a freelance consultant on one or two projects a month just working for an equivalent of a couple of days a week.

It was work that he enjoyed but he didn’t need to do all of the stress and hassle of being within the firm and having the constant pressure that goes with the employee status.

[0:19:22] JS: Tell us the Elliott Hulse story, what was his path?

[0:19:27] JD: Elliott Hulse is another person who I think represents a similar approach to the un-jobbing approach. He’s very much someone who’s interested in ways of finding out how you can work on things that are fulfilling to you and he’s basically a YouTube personality. He has a couple of YouTube channels.

He’s a strength trainer and his approach is very much about — he runs a business and a gym and teaches people to become the strongest versions of themselves as he puts it. Basically what it is, is this whole philosophy of life built around his strength training, which is not just in terms of exercise but also in terms of what it means to be the strongest version of yourself.

The reason I think he’s interesting from the un-jobbing perspective is that he’s talked a lot about how important it is to him to not be constrained by some unfulfilling job and to find a way to make it work in doing what is fulfilling to him and that’s actually what he’s done. He’s actually very successful in his business.

He’s also got a page called the Non-Job Manifesto which he talks about this idea of finding a way to work outside of the job paradigm. So where as Michael Fogler who writes the book Un-Jobbing is an example of someone who lives very, very frugally because that allows him to do the things that he wants to, Elliott Hulse is an example who’s built a business around what he’s really passionate about. And so it’s not really work to him because he really enjoys doing it but it’s also a very successful business.

[0:20:55] JS: I’m not extensively familiar with Elliott Hulse’s work but I do that I saw a presentation from him at one point that dramatically affected me and he was talking about simply not accepting any other alternative and just being willing to do whatever it takes and to utilize the resources that many people ignore.

His point and I think this may have been reality in his story, correct me after I share the story please, but his point is that in today’s world, if you’ve got to go down and live in the homeless shelter and get food stamps to get your groceries and get you handouts in the homeless shelter and then go and build your business using the free computer at the local library, in his case, you live like a homeless person or whatever you can get so that you could have the $200 you need to go by a camera and again, edit the videos in a local library and publish them online, just be determined and don’t settle for nothing, don’t settle for it.

And in hearing somebody present that, it made me think to myself. It was a real encouragement to me to realize that that was simply a mental shift that I was willing, if I was willing to do that, I could make the mental shift that I’m going to make this work even if it means I wind up totally broke, even if it means I wind up living on food stamps, even if it means I wind up using, again, the library.

Why not use those resources and get rid of my excuses? And it was scary because I realized that the major thing that were holding you back are just excuses but it was also really inspiring because I just realized, yes, in today’s modern world use the social safety net that our society has evidently decided is important, use that to get what you want out of life.

[0:22:49] JD: Yeah and I think there are some similarities between some of this kind of philosophical ideas behind the extreme saving movement and un-jobbing and what a lot of people who are interested in un-jobbing talk about, is how the consumer culture that we are in can really prevent you from doing what you want out of your life if you just take this as a default function that you need to have a nice house with a big mortgage and all of the consumer goods that make you feel that you fit in to the surroundings.

Both the extreme savers and the un-jobbers have really emphasize that these things come as an enormous cost to your freedom. If you want to save for financial independence and if that’s what’s really meaningful for you, then you can take a look at what you’re spending your money on and realize, a lot of that stuff is not getting you to where you want to go in terms of one day achieving financial independence. So the way the extreme savers go is say, “Right, I’m going to live super frugally, I’m going to put away 75% of my income so that one day, I will just be living off my investments and then I will do whatever I want.”

And the un-jobbers say, “Right, I’m not going to take on this massive mortgage and all of these other things that are more about keeping up with my neighbors. What I’m going to do is the thing that really matters to me is to work on what I’m passionate about and if that means I’m going to live super frugally for a while or even a longer term, that doesn’t matter because what’s important to me is what I’m going to find fulfilling.”

And yes, Elliott Hulse, in the book I talk about, what I did with him is where he describes how he talked to his wife about this when he started his business. He was saying, “If this doesn’t work out we might be living in the car,” but this is something that they talked through and they wanted to work out how important was it and what are they willing to sacrifice?

I think a lot of times it’s so easy to just take the default symbols of success which is the big house, the nice car and all of these other things and think, “Right, well of course I need those because otherwise I’d be a loser. So what I want is I want those and I also want a business that’s really exciting and fulfilling to me where I want to be able to travel.”

And so on and so forth and the key there is to say, “Well really how fulfilling is it to you to have that luxury car or that nice house? Is it really fulfilling or is it something that you are giving yourself in order to make up for the dreariness of the job that you have in order to pay for that stuff?”

[0:25:22] JS: It seems like so many of the chains that keep people and not everybody who’s working a job, living in a mainstream lifestyle and many people and I get e-mails from listeners sometimes that try to remind me, and it’s an important reminder, not everybody who’s living in a house with a white picket fence with a three year old car working in a corporate job, they’re not living in chains.

But there are some people who are and I just want to recognize not everyone needs to pursue these paths but so many of the chains that keep some people stuck in a place where they don’t want to be are mental. They don’t actually exist, they’re mental chains and it comes down to a scale of priority, a ranking of priorities.

I have a $5,000 car and I have a $500 car and I like to drive my little $500 car. There are times when I recognize it’s not socially appropriate but I like to drive it because it gets me down the road. And often, my wife and I are with some friends recently and there’s a young couple. They had a beautiful house, two brand new cars in the driveway and we don’t talk about money. It’s not that kind of relationship. I know enough about their financial situation to know that they are not wealthy.

They are enjoying and spending their income and I just looked at them and I said, “It’s not at all attractive to me anymore and my self-worth is now sufficient” that I can happily pull up in their driveway in my $500 car and happily enjoy the beauty of this nice house and go away with, “I don’t have any envy, I don’t have any jealousy, if anything, a sense of compassion because they’re stuck and I’m not.” It’s a mental chain though. It’s not a physical thing. It’s a mental ability to crossover that hurdle to be okay with your life choices.

[0:27:12] JD: Yeah, I think I really resonate with everything that you’ve said there. I think it’s really important and just to pick up on the first thing that you said, to make the point that I don’t consider jobs to be inherently bad or exploitative or a bad way to live. In fact, jobs are incredibly important and helpful especially in the early stages of your career.

The gaining experience, gaining contacts, whatever your plans are whether it’s to start your own business or work towards financial independence through extreme saving or whatever. So I think it’s really important because sometimes when people want to break out, they can really get polarized between seeing that typical, if you like, job lifestyle as being inherently bad and then their way is being the only true path.

And my book is not about that. It’s about really just challenging the default assumptions. If you are happy in your job and you’re having a great time and you enjoy spending your money in a way that you’re spending it, great. The problem is, if you have taken on those assumptions, typically through schooling especially because we’re all trained to be employees. All of our teachers are lifelong employees and they never teach anything else except how to get a job and keep a job.

So if you’re just brought up with those assumptions then it can get you to the point where without knowing it you have lost for opportunities for freedom that you really could take simply because you’ve not been able to breakout of that paradigm. So that’s what I’m hoping that this can help do is to give people, as you said, especially in the beginning stages a real overview of the different options that are open outside the realm of getting and keeping a good job.

The entrepreneurial options and other options that are about living job free which you are not going to get in school and what you are not going to get taught by university sectors, so that those type of options are open to all of us and we live in such an amazing time and opportunity to pursue those options.

And the sad thing is, a lot of people just by default take on these assumptions and get into that lifestyle where before they know it, they’ve got a huge debt, a massive mortgage to pay off and they’re living on consumer debt and paying for things and credit cards and then once you’ve taken on all of those responsibilities, it’s much harder to really breakout of it.

[0:29:39] JS: Which of these four paths to financial freedom is the easiest?

[0:29:45] JD: Well, I think it depends a lot on your character, on what you want and on what’s going to make you happy. For example, I think in some ways if you’re really stuck and you don’t know what to do, then the default option I would suggest is to go for the extreme saving route. Save money.

If you don’t yet know what kind of business you could start or if you don’t have the skills or you don’t have the contacts, then saving is great because first of all, you can just continue along that path and continue until you gradually build up more and more levels of financial freedom. But also, it gives you the capital to then start your own business or do other things when you do have that in mind and when you do have that approach.

So I think if you’re really stuck, I would suggest that the saving route is the one to go for but then again, it depends on your character. I was always really excited about the idea of entrepreneurship. That to me, was not just a goal finally to achieve financial independence but that seemed like an amazing, awesome opportunity, a great adventure that I wanted to do and so the doing of it was a very fulfilling thing for me too.

In fact, the mentor that I met very early in my teen years who I sort of looked up to was an entrepreneur and I saw what he was doing and he had a very clear plan to achieve financial independence through entrepreneurship. So that was a path to me that was very tangible. I could see that it’s possible. I could see other people doing it and I wanted to follow it. Other people just don’t like the idea of being an entrepreneur and for them, it wouldn’t be the right path.

As I say, I think in terms of like a default choice, I would say the savings. If you can’t think of anything that you want to do otherwise, that’s the easiest one to do because even though it’s quite hard to live the lifestyle of extreme frugality, it’s relatively straight forward what you actually have to do. It’s not very complicated, you just got to make the savings and that’s it.

[0:31:58] JS: Which of the four paths is the most certain?

[0:32:01] JD: Well again, I would say that the saving route is the one that’s most certain because it has the least entrepreneurial risk involved. Having said that, the issue with the savings route and you and I have talked about this before is that it’s got a limited upside because there are just limits to how much you’re going to be able to save from a job.

And there are constraints that when you get into entrepreneurship and building a business, the potential upside is bigger and that reflects the fact that it’s riskier too. The safest route because it’s most under your control is to go for extreme saving in a job where you are able to have a fairly steady career and you just really focus on the things that you control, which is getting your own spending really, really under control and putting away as much as you can.

If you do that, then you can gradually slowly work your way towards financial independence but you’re not going to be getting nearly as much potential upside for example as you would do if you become a successful entrepreneur.

[0:33:12] JS: Yeah, I love having the four discreet categories because it’s useful for people to look at and see, “Oh, there are multiple ways.” And the reason why I asked you about the most certain and the easiest to start with is I think the hardest one to start with, and I agree with you, it’s hard to say and its true, the hardest one to start with is the idea of launching a startup.

Because if you have the idea of launching a startup, at least this is my personal experience, goal is I’m going to launch a startup, I’m going to build a big business and I’m going to sell it out for $5 million. Well, you’re often looking at ideas and they’ve got to be big and so it’s very frustrating when you’re looking around saying, “What’s that idea? What’s the idea? What’s the idea?” And sometimes, you don’t have the idea. Sometimes the idea comes later.

And so what I spent time doing and I wasted several years by not having the clarity of starting with extreme savings, I wasted time constantly looking, “What’s that big idea?” And now, in retrospect what I think about your four categories, is I almost see them as a numbered path to starting. So the number one thing is extreme savings because if you have an income, then focus on saving as much of that income as it is practical for your circumstance.

Now, there will be people who will not pursue this because they say, “I’m not just willing to live that frugal lifestyle,” but many people are and especially many younger people. So extreme savings gives you multiple things, most especially it give you cash, which allows you to more easily make a transition to un-jobbing if you would like. It’s a lot easier to go and move into transient employment if you’ve got some several thousand dollars at the minimum at the bank/

So you could be a little bit more comfortable with the fact that, “Okay, sometime over the next few months I’ve got to get a job. Or I’ve got to get a temporary gig of some kind.” So extreme saving leads naturally into un-jobbing. Un-jobbing might lead naturally into your discovering and building a lifestyle business, and also extreme savings is the foundation for your lifestyle business. It gives you the ability to take the risk on starting a new business and then what might happen is your lifestyle business might have to transition into a startup, something that could grow.

Now, not all lifestyle businesses can scale but what I think can happen and I’ll use, you used right in the first of your paragraphs on lifestyle business, you used the example of Pat Flynn, founder of Smart Passive Income. So I think Pat started with, in his story, I’m finding that the path that he’s taking is similar to where I’m at.

His story was he started Smart Passive Income, he started to build a lifestyle business but at this point, he could shut the whole things down and live on savings but the lifestyle business has become a much bigger business and that’s what I’m finding with Radical Personal Finance. At this time, I could with my family, sell all of our stuff, take my cellphone and a little microphone and create my podcast all around the world.

And I could make enough for us to move down and live with you in Panama City. But what I’m finding is, I don’t really want to do that anymore. Now, I want to build something that’s bigger that has a bigger impact and it’s not so much the financial motivation. It’s more of about, “Well I guess I didn’t want to actually quit.”

[0:36:29] JD: Yeah, absolutely. Pat is a great example and I used him as one of the examples for lifestyle business because that transition is very clear. He was working for an architectural firm and he had a blog and he started to monetize that role. Actually, he was made redundant from his architectural firm and he needed a job.

[0:36:49] JS: It’s so cute how you Brits say that. “He was made redundant,” — he was fired.

[0:36:54] JD: Yeah.

[0:36:55] JS: Very cute and politically correct. I like that tone of phrase you guys use.

[0:37:02] JD: Yeah, so he had to get income and he was able to monetize this blog and that really was something that a lot of people found helpful because it was a blog that was about passing an exam that a lot of other people were working towards and so this blog was very helpful. He was able to monetize it and he had products spinning off it.

As you say, that created this passive income lifestyle, this lifestyle business and now, he’s clearly making a lot more than what he would need to, to carry on and in a way, he is doing it because he just loves doing it. I think it’s true also that if you want to do a startup, then you have to think about the startup in terms of not, “This is going to be my ticket to financial independence.” But, “Am I going to find this fulfilling as something to do?”

The same goes for any lifestyle business really because you don’t know whether or not you ever will have a business that does successfully get to the point of being valuable enough to sell it and even then, whether or not you are able to successfully negotiate and sell and find a buyer. So it depends on what you’re going to find fulfilling and doing it as well and the same with the lifestyle business.

It might be that it’s much harder to make money in one particular industry that you want to start your lifestyle business in and you don’t necessary know that it’s going to be a four hour work week. Most lifestyle businesses are not four hour work weeks. They’re much more than that and in a way, that has become a little bit of a myth sometimes because it’s not easy to get a lifestyle, to get a business providing you with that regular income on so little work per week.

So the question you’ve got to ask yourself is, “Are you going to enjoy it anyway?” Are you going to find it fulfilling to have this business even if you’re working a lot more than four hours a week and if you are, then that’s fine because you’re not going to lose doing the business ‘cause it’s going to be interesting to you anyway.

[0:38:54] JS: Pretend that I am reading your book and I am a 40 year old man or woman and I’m middle income, middle America or I could be middle Europe, whatever, middle class and I’m sitting there saying, “Well, I got $20,000 in my 401(k) but beyond that, I don’t really have that much.” How do I sit down and analyze my situation to — but I really want to be financially independent? How do I sit down and analyze my path to figure out which of these approaches is best for me?

[0:39:29] JD: Well that’s a really good question and it’s interesting that you start with a 40 year old because I think the easier case and the people who are going to gain most from my book are the 20 year olds because they have a lot more ahead of them to choose freely as to which path they’re going to take in different paths of their life.

They may well find that there are some periods in your 20’s where extreme saving makes a lot of sense because you don’t have a lot of experience and then later on, you can branch into other things. With the 40 year old, I think you have to look at where you’re at and what you already have in terms of your own human capital really.

I’ll give you an example. I mentioned before a friend of mine who was a management consultant and he was in his mid-30’s when it got to the point where he had such good industry connections that he was able to go freelance and he was able to make good money and be there for the birth of his son and for the first couple of years of his son’s life and be basically like a stay at home dad and yet do a bit of work here and there.

So for that period of his life un-jobbing was great. It was a really good opportunity. He was able to build on all of the experience and industry contacts that he’d already gained by that time in his career. It would have been totally different if he had zero contacts and no chance. So I think for that 40 year old, you’ve got to ask yourself, “Well what have you got and what’s realistic from the way you go from here?”

Because you can start extreme saving at any point in your life. It’s actually down to you to decide to make the lifestyle changes, to start doing the extreme saving. If you do it really intensively then in 10 years, you can get to the point of financial independence. So that 40 year old even though it’s actually starting out later, within 10 years, they could potentially replicate the kind of pattern that people like Jacob Lund Fisker and Mr. Money Mustache and other people have done.

There are lots of people that is pursuing that approach but you could also say as a 40 year old, what have you got in terms of your insights into this industry that you work in? What business could you start? What could be the opportunities? It depends where you’re at in terms of things like your kids, what other financial responsibilities you have.

Once you get to that age, you’re a lot more locked in to the previous decisions that you’ve made. So I hope that my book can be most helpful to people who have, the younger people who are thinking about their approaches but I think at any age, it’s still possible to change your direction and you can still make incredible changes within what is a lifetime of relatively short amount of time.

[0:42:18] JS: Pretend that you’re counselling me again, same scenario continuing on and I’m saying, “Jake, I’m 40 years old and I was meeting with my financial adviser and I’m just doing a review of my 401(k) and I need to be saving more money in my 401(k) for retirement because I’m going to be 65 soon and my fear Jake is if I leave this job, I’m going to lose my 401(k) and things are very, very uncertain. What do I do about my retirement?”

[0:42:47] JD: Well, this is again a really important question that each person has to decide their own approach to risk and to rewards. For me, I started entrepreneurship when I had nothing to lose. I had no money, well actually I had some savings that I put into the business that I had accumulated through my work but I didn’t have any kids, I didn’t have a wife.

And I was able to just go for it and I knew that after five years or so if I hadn’t worked out, well then I would go and get a job and it wouldn’t be such a big deal and it would still have all of that runway ahead of me. I think it really depends for the person whose 40 is really worried about their retirement, if they are very risk averse, then the least risky route is always going to be the extreme savings route because that route is always going to be the route that you stay, take advantage of whatever career position that you have. But it depends on how important it is to you to be job free.

That’s what my book is about. It’s about being job free and about living outside of a job and having the freedom to be your own boss, to not have somebody else to answer to and to decide for yourself how you want to live. For some people, that’s really important and it’s worth taking some risks for and so you have to decide for yourself how risk averse you are and whether or not you’ve left things to a point where you really need to focus first on saving for a while before you do anything else. So I would always say it’s going to be an individual decision.

I was very focused on entrepreneurship and I was really willing to just go for it on the understanding that well, I could just lose five years of my life on something that doesn’t ultimately workout but I will learn a huge amount in the process and that’s fine. I’m fine with that. I didn’t mind the risk of failure and I didn’t mind the fact that would then be the end of five years project that was just done. Other people find that really challenging and in some ways, that fear of failure is actually what stops a lot of other people from really trying.

[0:44:59] JS: I have a show title on my list of shows to create. I haven’t done it yet, but the title is “Don’t ask yourself the question of what will you do when you retire. Ask yourself the question, what would you do if you could never retire?” And the idea is, why don’t we focus first on, instead of talking about retiring comfortably, why don’t we talk about working comfortably?

Because the constant theme that I see is people who are financially independent, very few of them stop working and so this idea that you must be financially independent in order to make the transition is, I think it’s false and by having these different paths, you can I guess feel more confident about some of the decisions and then that was where I was bringing in another aspect is retirement.

There are multiple paths to financial freedom and then even of itself, retirement doesn’t have to be done — you don’t actually have to be financially free to build more of a lifestyle and sometimes you might even go backward. I had a client of mine who taught me this lesson and the way he taught it to me was I came to do financial planning and I was working on his portfolio.

But his portfolio wasn’t very big but what he was doing is he had shut down a fairly successful business and transitioned into an employee role in the same industry and then he was planning, when I first met him and then later did it, he was planning to transition from working as the employee in this business to going back to college, as a guy in his mid-40’s, going back to college and then getting a job working as a teacher.

Because he loved history and he wanted to teach high school history and he wanted to choose teaching so that he would have time to travel and because teaching was something that he wanted to do and that he could do it for a very long period of time. And so he was making this transition from the ideal, the big business back to employee and then back to totally different job because the job would create more of a lifestyle for him. When you see all the different paths, it blows so many holes in the standard US American approach of work a job 40 years and retire at 65. I wonder why anybody wants that path anymore?

[0:47:23] JD: Yeah, absolutely and that’s why I chose to focus on the concept to being job free rather than the concept of being financially independent because although financial independence is great, it’s not the only path to being job free and you can live a fulfilling wonderful life not being financially independent, if you find ways of making ends meet that make you happy and give you fulfilment because ultimately, that’s the goal.

Financial freedom for me really is about not having to work in a job that you don’t enjoy and if you don’t have to work in a job that you don’t like, then you have the freedom to do what you want with your time. Whether that is more work that earns a lot of money or work that is fulfilling and doesn’t work then so much money and in many ways, that’s the key. It’s breaking up the paradigm of success being essentially continually earning more and more until you get to the point where you’re playing golf as a retiree.

Because ultimately, by that time, first of all, I don’t like golf so it wouldn’t be much fun for me but by that time, you don’t have the chance to really enjoy because you’re stressed out all the way through your career trying to ultimately earn more and more money. I have seen that happen. I’ve seen people get into that mindset where success is defined by how many toys you have and how much money you have.

For me, when I sold my business, I became a director in the international company that bought my business and I could have continued working there and earning a lot of money and I could have built from that and gone on within the corporate world to a higher level corporate job and so forth, but I just didn’t want to.

When I stopped working, when I actually then at the end of the earn out period after I had helped integrate my company, I stopped working to do things like travel and write books and do podcasts and all of these things involve me taking a massive cut in income that I could have had if I’d stayed in that corporate world.

But I didn’t need it because that money wasn’t ultimately going to be nearly as fulfilling to me as the lifestyle of traveling the world with my wife. Seeing all the amazing beautiful things that there are to see, expressing my thoughts and hopefully being able to help other people through my books, find freedom in their own way and these are the things that bring meaning to my life. So why should I continue earning more when I have enough to do whatever I want?

[0:49:50] JS: Tell us the story of your friend Peter and what you learned by interacting with him and observing his life?

[0:49:57] JD: Well, Peter’s story is one that I tell it in the book and I found that a lot of people really connected to it because finding someone because I wanted to explain — I did have a mentor when I was growing up, I met someone when I was a teenager. I was really trying to understand politics. I was asking my parents lots of questions that they weren’t able to understand, they were able to answer.

And my mother suggested that I speak to this guy, Peter, who’s been previously active in the same political groups as her and I went to talk to him and he would have become totally disillusioned with politics and he was building a business. He was an entrepreneur and we became good friends and I asked him what his goals in life were after knowing him for a bit.

And he was very clear and explicit with me that he planned to build a business, get to the point of being a millionaire and then retire and just do whatever he wanted, which probably wouldn’t be very much more than just reading interesting books and having philosophical conversations. These were the kinds of things that he ultimately wanted to do.

I found that such an incredible thing to hear at that age because this was somebody who clearly planned to be a success in his chosen field and then he was just going to quit and be a successful dropout and I’d not heard anyone talk about that and the other thing that really impressed me was that this wasn’t just a dream that he wanted to be a millionaire. He was seriously planning it and he was absolutely going for it.

And everything that he was doing with building his own business was leaning towards this goal and he was serious about implementing it. This wasn’t just idle talk and that also made a huge impression on me because I took from that that it’s okay to take this seriously and to believe in doing it. Not just to treat it like, “Oh, wouldn’t it be nice one day.” And so that made a huge impression on me in many ways slowly. It took time for all to sink in and I spent a lot of time in university, I did post graduate studies and eventually, I even did a PhD.

But when I left the university, I started my own business and I very much was following in his path. He was an inspiration to me and I was following in this idea too that I could live a life free of jobs. I could build my own business, work for myself and then I could also at some point just retire early or do whatever I want with my time. What was interesting to me — so that was my mentor and in many ways, by writing this book, I’m hoping that other people can see lots of stories of people who’ve done this.

This is one of the things about the book, is to present not just Peter’s story but different stories from other people who I’ve interviewed who have done this in their own way. But an interesting thing happened with Peter which is later on, after I’ve been working very hard and building my own business, I finally manage to meet up with Peter again.

I haven’t seen him for a long time because I had borrowed the money from him to start my business. He had been incredibly supportive. And what I found when I met him again is that, he was now a multimillionaire. He’d blown way past his original dream of becoming a millionaire. He was still making more and more money. He was incredibly successful, living in a mansion and he was incredibly unhappy.

What had happened was his goals has changed and he became more and more interested in the more outward show of success; having a luxury car, having a mansion, having lots and lots of women that he was seeing and lots and lots of women who were interested in him. He gave up on love and he just wanted to basically sleep with lots of beautiful women, which he was able to do because there were always lots of people who are interested in someone who is obviously very rich and successful like that.

But what I saw was that he was unhappy and that his life was not fulfilling to him and that made a huge impression on me too because I never gave up on his original dream, which was always a big inspiration to me, and I think it’s really important to ask yourself how much is enough and what you really want, do you want money or do you want freedom?

And for me, it was always freedom and money is just a means to achieve more freedom in life and so I had a mentor who was a great inspiration to me and who also was an inspiration again in a way because he changed course and in the end, our lives went in different paths but I still learned a huge amount from it.

[0:54:35] JS: I’d like to ask you a philosophical question. You’re writing this book and exploring these concepts which are expressing the fact that money as a goal in and of itself is rarely fulfilling rather it’s a tool and then you’ve described the story of you walking away from it. But philosophically, I believe that, and although you write in the book that at 13 years old, you were trying to become a Marxist.

At this point, I would say that philosophically you see the value of a capitalistic economy and I’m curious, how do you integrate these seemingly opposing philosophies? The one idea being that capitalism by pursuing our own economic self-interest and by building our fortunes, we’re motivated by that, that’s commonly how it’s perceived with the other being, “Well if we build our happiness and do that and then we’ve got enough.” How do you integrate these two seeming opposing philosophies?

[0:55:38] JD: Well, yeah. You’re right, just to explain, the reason I originally wanted to ask Peter lots of questions was that I was trying to understand socialism. My parents were socialist and I want to be one too and I was reading Karl Marx’s Best Capital. I’m trying to make sense of it and Peter was actually someone who was incredibly well read and have previously been a Marxist and been interested in all these stuff.

It was through our conversations that I realized that none of that stuff made any sense. Not only was it logically floored but also incredibly destructive ideology and Peter recognized that too which was something that I really admired was that he had the integrity when we talked about it under questioning to acknowledge the fault and the arguments and to acknowledge how destructive they were.

But I also think that does not mean that entrepreneurship is all about grabbing as much as you can and that “the one with the most toys wins” so to speak. What I see it as is, it’s the opportunity to live freely which means that you choose for yourself what is important in terms of what you consume.

If you want to consume luxury goods, if that’s what makes you happy do it. I don’t think there’s anything evil or wrong with that. Personally, I just don’t think it’s a very wise choice given the cost benefits for myself. It doesn’t make any sense. I have never owned a car and I don’t miss it and up until the time when I was financially independent, I never owned any property.

I only stayed in a small rented apartment and I eventually bought a place once I’d sold my business but I didn’t miss it. It wasn’t important to me and so what I see is really what’s so exciting about entrepreneurship and about the ability to be an entrepreneur on the market and provide value to others, is you can choose at what level you find fulfillment.

If you find fulfillment having a tiny lifestyle business that brings you just enough income to live in a low cost place like Mexico or somewhere else and you’re having a great time, good for you. I think that’s a wonderful way to live. If you want to build the next billion dollar business and that’s what you think is going to be supper exciting, then fine. Good for you too.

I think it’s a question of your choice and your freedom. It’s not a question of on the one hand, we have to collectivize everything and nobody should have anything more than anyone else and on the other hand, somehow a free market approach is more that, “Oh everyone’s got to grab as much as they possibly can.”

I think that freedom that matters to me is the freedom to choose for yourself and for everyone to have the choice of the lifestyle that makes most sense to them and I think money is an incredibly valuable tool but not the end of itself and so that’s how I see that philosophical difference.

[0:58:53] JS: Yeah, I think that’s a good point and that’s where the distinction where when you get into political philosophy and political ideology, many times I’ve seen that the wealthiest people tend to be extremely generous and what is frustrating to people, especially who are wealthy, is that it’s when it’s their choice to be generous.

Taxation is not charity. Taxation is a staff at the end of the gun and so regardless of whether it’s taxation to support the President’s White House in the United States or whatever the equivalent is in the UK or whether it’s taxation to support the global war machine or whether it’s taxation to give to the poor person down the street, the reason doesn’t matter. It wasn’t a voluntary choice.

So that’s very different than generosity and charity which many people find, at least many of the wealthy people who I’ve worked with, they find a deep sense of meaning and purpose behind that. So often, people just see those political ideology or this philosophies that, “The whole idea of capitalism is to get as much money as you can.” Well, that’s not true. It’s the freedom of choice as you described. Go ahead.

[1:00:07] JD: Yeah and not only that but also the thing that’s really exciting to me is that being an entrepreneur and most of these job free lifestyles have some element of entrepreneurship in them. That is about providing value. That’s how the world gets better. These are positive, non-political things that you could do to make a real impact on the world.

Not only is it great to achieve as much freedom as you can in your own life to find fulfillment but I see true entrepreneurship, the kind where you’re a genuine entrepreneur, providing value to others as how the world gets better. That is how we have all of the great benefits of all of the innovation and amazing things that power our lifestyle today is through entrepreneurs.

It’s entrepreneurs who bought those things to the world because everything through entrepreneurship is voluntary and one of the great benefits to me of living a job free lifestyle is that you get to choose according to your own ethics how you make money and what you think is the right way to live.

Derek Sivers makes this point in his book about his business that when you start your own business, you’re creating your own little utopia. It’s up to you to decide how people should be treated. You know, what you consider to be decent and the right way to live and you can do it. You can choose to do good in your own way by providing value voluntarily.

You don’t have to put up with any nonsense from an employer who may have a vision that’s different to yours even if you may think they don’t have as much integrity as you. If there’s any question of the integrity of the business, it’s down to you and it’s your responsibility to do that and that’s both a challenge and a wonderful opportunity.

[1:01:55] JS: Yeah. You have said it well and that’s what’s so frustrating to me about most modern political conversation is what has happened in our modern era is we’ve come to the point where people often say, “Well the way that we make change is I force my desired changed on everyone else and then everything will be fine.”

Instead of people saying, “I’m just going to go make change,” and that’s why I, one of the reasons why I love entrepreneurship. There’s a famous story, I forgot the guy’s name and his business but there was the guy who’s a CEO of a company up in the Pacific Northwest of United States who cut his salary, his very high salary and cut his salary down to $75,000, increased all of his employees’ wages massively and he had all the news, all these laudatory news stories about how wonderful the CEO was for this decision.

And I fully supported his actions but what made me so frustrated in watching scenarios like that was that everyone automatically wanted to use that as a reason to employ violence against everyone else or a threat of violence and say, “Well that’s why you should do that.” So instead of saying, “Hey, let this guy lead by example and good for him. It’s his money, he made the choice” it’s automatically, “Well we’ve got to cap all the other CEO pay. We’re going to cap everyone else and we’ve got to automatically take our perspective and force it onto to everyone else.”

And it’s a major problem in the modern society to automatically think of using force and saying, “I’m going to force everyone else to do what I think is right” instead of simply saying, “I’m just going to go do it. I’m going to show you how I do it. I’m going to run my business the way that I want to run it and if you want to see change, you go run your business the way you want to run it.”

[1:03:44] JD: Yeah, I think anytime you see a problem in the world, the most productive question you can ask is how could I create a venture that would voluntarily help this problem be solved? If you’re right, then you’ve seen entrepreneurial opportunity. If you see that there is a pain point in the way that people live and that it could made better, you could save people time, you could save people heartache, you could save people whatever it is, then there’s an entrepreneurial opportunity there.

And the way with real integrity is trying to help is to actually do it voluntarily which ultimately means start your own business and help people and if you do help people, they’ll pay for it and it will fund the business and it will fund the whole venture forward in terms of making an impact on the world. This is in fact for me the most fulfilling aspect of entrepreneurship.

The financial independence is wonderful but I suggest that whether it’s a lifestyle business or a startup, I think if you do it because you are excited about making a difference, and in your case Joshua, you are obviously excited about helping people achieve better control of their finances and more financial freedom, then the money is great but every day that you do this, you’re really living your purpose, which is a wonderful way to live.

[1:05:09] JS: Yeah. Jake, as you were writing and researching and now finishing the publication of this book, what was probably the biggest change in your mindset? What was the thing that stood out to you as you were going through and editing and editing and editing where you said, “Wow, I didn’t quite see that before I started this project but now I really see this point”?

[1:05:32] JD: I think what changed me is that, through doing this research, I started from a position of being an entrepreneur and I very much was in the startup route and I saw that as I had mentioned before, my mentor, the person who I looked up to has taken this route, I saw that as freedom.

What I realized, the more people I interviewed on my podcast The Voluntary Life, and the more I found that there were other people who would achieve their own sense of freedom and their own job free lifestyle in different ways, the more I realized that, “This is not just my way.” There are other ways to do this and the more I realized also how of their reasons is not much over that between these different communities of people who have found ways to live job free.

I think your podcast is an interesting one because you speak about all of these different approaches with different people but often, there is not that much overlap for example between startup entrepreneurs and extreme savers. I think in many ways those two communities don’t really know each other and I don’t think the extreme savers have much of an insight as to what it is like to be a startup entrepreneur.

And I don’t think the startup entrepreneur have as much of an insight as to what it is like to be an extreme saver and yet, in many ways I think they share many similar values and many opportunities to learn from each other and I certainly found that I learned a huge amount by looking at these other approaches and seeing that the ways that you can find freedom.

So now, I like to pick and choose and take from all of these approaches the things that are meaningful to me and philosophically, I can learn a huge amount from all of them but that’s what happened to me through doing the research for the book was it really opened my mind to the different options that are out there.

[1:07:19] JS: I love the book. I’ll just, as an absolute endorsement here, Jake sent me an advance review copy and I sent him back a little blurb for his publicity and I’ll just read my blurb. Here’s what I sent him, I said:

“This book is a required introductory text for anyone who is interested in achieving financial independence. You will save years of misdirected work if you began with a clear plan and Jake’s book provides the outlined plan that you need.”

The book is really, really good. It’s very concise, the estimated length on Amazon is 96 pages, the price is great right now on Amazon. I’ll put a direct link to the book through at Radicalpersonalfinance.com/jobfree. I’ll put that link on the notes and blog post for today’s post but it’s $3.99 on Kindle right now and it’s also part of the Kindle Unlimited package.

So if you are a subscriber to Kindle Unlimited, get over to Job Free and check the book out. I’d love to see the book really grow and rise in popularity because I think you’ve written something that’s incredibly useful Jake and again, it’s for anyone who is interested in financial independence, I don’t know, what do you think? It takes an hour to read, an hour and a half? I mean it’s a 100 pages so.

[1:08:32] JD: Yeah, you can read it in an afternoon if you want, if you’re interested.

[1:08:37] JS: Yeah.

[1:08:38] JD: I’ve had people who’ve told me that actually. They have read it in one sitting because they’re really interested.

[1:08:42] JS: Yeah, you can and it’s just so clear to provide those outlines because it provides the choice that people need and exactly the point that you’ve said throughout this interview. Many times people say, “Well this path is the right one,” and they don’t recognize that there are many paths and so for some people, extreme savings is all they need. Some people, un-jobbing is all they need. I’ve gone through the transition.

I’ve started with the goal of creating lifestyle business. Now, I’m moving on to startup world and you can pursue all of them but the key is having them identified in your mind you will be empowered with the ability to look at your own situation and judge what’s best for you.

So Jake, I thank you for writing the book. Thank you for coming on the show. Also mentioned, you got the podcast, is it Thevoluntarylife.com I think? You’ve got the “the” in there?

[1:09:37] JD: Yes.

[1:09:37] JS: Okay, so thevoluntarylife.com podcast, The Voluntary Life Podcast and if you’re interested in a really great insight into somebody who’s living the financial independent lifestyle, check out Jake’s podcast as well.

[1:09:51] JD: Thank you so much Joshua. It’s been really fun talking to you.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[1:09:55] JS: Your homework now is to take the information in today’s show and to think about your different options. Expect those options to change. When I started, I had done a little bit of savings but not extreme savings and I was primarily focusing on building the lifestyle business. Now that I have built the lifestyle business and that’s starting to function, now I’m looking to saying “Well, am I really creating a startup or am I just building a bigger business?” I don’t know.

But if you think about these bigger options, I believe you can use all of them at different points in your life depending on where you are and having them firmly in mind will help you. And un-jobbing, you want to go and travel the world and you don’t have a lot of money? Figure out an un-jobbing gig that you can do.

So I hope that you could gain inspiration from the different stories and the different strategies and then you can design whichever one of these strategies is the best for you. I strongly urge you to go and check out Jake’s book. It’s well worth the money. From the time that I recorded the interview today, I was trying to figure out whether the cost has changed.

I will link the show notes and blog posts for today’s show through to the book on Amazon. That will be an affiliate link so if you use that, I get a commission for selling you the book. Thank you for that by the way. But just check the current price, but it’s well worth reading. This book is officially on my list of must read books when building out a plan for financial independence because it will save you a lot of time.

It will save you possibly years. I know I would have saved years if I had read this book in the beginning. So if you have any interest at all in financial freedom, financial independence, make sure to read the book and save yourself some serious time. Check out all of Jake’s information, his podcast, his website.

Jake does a really good job. His show is not very commercial, his website is not very commercial. He already made some money. I’m sure he makes some money on a few things here and there but he’s writing this books, he’s travelling the world, he really puts his money where his mouth is and in the world of internet marketing, I find that refreshing. I’d rather listen to guys like Jake than the latest guru to sell you the latest greatest system.

So check out all of his information on thevoluntarylife.com. If this show has been valuable to you, I appreciate your support on Patreon. You can find all the details of that at radicalpersonalfinance.com/patreon. Thank you to the new patrons who signed up in the last few days. I appreciate you supporting me. Radicalpersonalfinance.com/patreon for all that information and I will be back with you soon.

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