10 Comments

1. 

   Cyndy on November 1, 2014 at 12:11 pm

   Thought-provoking podcast. Even though I am child-free this is still a topic of great interest to me in that it affects all of society. I am fascinated and a bit envious of the children that are experiencing these alternative educations that you discussed. However I do wonder what the outcome would be if all children are taught to pursue only their interests and to have no patience for boring and mundane work. Sounds like a society rife with artists who can’t find patrons and entrepreneurs who can’t find employees.

   In the early 90’s I worked in Japan as an assistant English teacher in public high schools. There is a country that takes that Prussian concept of schools as a tool for conformity and obedience to authority to a much higher degree than the U.S. The teachers there often lamented to me, how can we be more like the U.S. and teach our children creative thinking? Yes, in there eyes, we were doing a much better job of that over here. At the same time, many here envied Japan’s high test scores and near lack of discipline problems. It seems the grass is always greener on the other side.
   

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     Joshua Sheats on November 3, 2014 at 11:06 am

     Thanks, Cyndy! I’m glad you enjoyed it! I also find it a very thought-provoking and challenging subject.

     If you’re interested in it, check out Gatto’s “Underground History” book. You’ll find that he talks a lot about that. Essentially, I think that society would look very different than it does today. He references the historical fact that most people in the early Americas were self-employed/entrepreneurs because they couldn’t conceive of the idea of giving their freedom to work for someone else.

     I remember as a boy reading in “Farmer Boy” (one of the Little House on the Prairie series) a paragraph where Almonzo’s father (a farmer) talks about how he can’t understand why any man would give up his freedom and self-destiny as a farmer to go into town and be a storekeeper.

     That passage always stuck with me. I think it shows a different mindset.

     Frankly, I have no idea what that kind of society would look like today. I doubt it would be as agrarian as our society once was, but it would certainly look very different than it now does.

     I don’t think that people would be unwilling to work for others. But I think they would be less willing to do meaningless work.

     I wouldn’t necessarily believe that “mundane” is synonymous with “meaningless.” Personally, I enjoy mundane, physical labor. I like seeing things that I build come together. I enjoy physical exertion, even if it’s with mundane tasks like mowing the lawn.

     I do bet there would be fewer TPS reports. 🙂

     On your second point: one of the biggest problems I see in figuring out solutions is the reliance on test scores as a valid metric. It seems to me that test scores are only valid if we’re trying to measure conformity to a standard. If conformity to an external standard is not a criterion, most test scores go out the window as being less important.

     It seems that we intuitively know that the more valuable skills are often harder to measure. How do you actually measure creativity? What does it actually mean?

     One person may be very creative in mathematics or physics and yet not be able to express themselves visually. I think I remember anecdotally that Einstein was a poor student as measured by test scores. But, that doesn’t mean he was a poor theorist.

     Tough questions!
     

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     • 

       Mark on November 24, 2014 at 1:00 am

       The irony of the world envying the US school system’s ability to produce creative thinkers, according to Yong Zhao in the book World Class Learners, is the systems ability to discourage some of its students. The discouraged or undeserved kids that are allowed to fall trough the cracks within the system end becoming the Gates or 50 Cents of the world.
       

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         Joshua Sheats on December 2, 2014 at 5:38 am

         Thanks for sharing…I haven’t read that book. It is certainly ironic. I’m fascinated with how so many people are able to achieve brilliant results in spite of many things that are thrown against them. People are amazing!
         

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2. 

   Cyndy on November 3, 2014 at 9:08 pm

   Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I will have to put that book on my reading list. You’re right, mundane was not the right word. My job involves entering items into spreadsheets all day to generate quotes. Not exactly meaningless, because the company can’t function without it, but very dull and tedious for me. However, making spreadsheets at home for my own finances, MUCH MORE FUN!
   

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   • 

     Joshua Sheats on November 4, 2014 at 1:52 pm

     It’s a serious tome but it’s utterly fascinating. You’ll enjoy it, I promise!
     

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3. 

   ChrisEE on November 12, 2014 at 8:34 am

   Joshua,

   When I saw the topic of these two episodes, I admit I planned to skip them as I did w/ the teach your baby to read episode.

   I decided to give the first episode a listen only b/c I didn’t have anything else to listen to b/c your ITunes feed has been down and I haven’t updated the other podcasts I listen to regularly.

   WOW! That was really interesting and has me questioning what I thought I knew and felt about education and how we will approach education with our own daughter.

   A couple of questions for you? Are you set on home schooling for your son or are you still considering options? You touched on your education in the episode, but could you lay our your own personal education path that has shaped your impressions. (Sounds like a combo of home school and public schools?)

   I am a product of public schools and my wife private catholic schools, and we were leaning toward public. One thing we thought about was traveling in early retirement and home schooling. Where I am torn is that I have the opposite view from you in wanting to keep your kids away from other kids influence. I think that having gone to a public school in an urban, poor environment that I was forced to learn to interact with a wide variety of people and that this is an in invaluable aspect of education. Being a part of your business would also be valuable and different, I just don’t know that I agree that it is best for a child. I kind of think taking the school experience away from our daughter would deprive her socially, even if being beneficial in other ways. I’m not sure if it is spelled out in the bible as such, but I think Jesus started hanging with the tax collectors and prostitutes when sitting with them at the jr. high lunch table:) Seriously though, it is an area that deserves a lot more thought than I (and I would imagine most people) give it. Thanks for talking about this thought provoking topic.

   Chris
   

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     Joshua Sheats on November 14, 2014 at 6:11 am

     I’m glad you gave it a listen! That’s how I felt when I first started researching the topic. I had no idea about the history of it and in studying it, I was seriously challenged.

     I’m set on home education(I do my best at this point to avoid the word school in order to keep my thoughts straight. I don’t like things to be defined in terms of school. As writer Laurette Lynn, author of “Don’t Do Drugs, Stay Out of School” says, only school can do school.). It’s definitely the right starting point for us. But I reserve my right to change as time goes on.

     I think it’s vital for us as parents to constantly evaluate if what we’re doing is having positive results and if we need to change something.

     My personal path: home education from the beginning until third grade, public school in third grade, back home until the middle of my seventh grade year, seventh through twelfth grade at a private school.

     I should clarify my present opinion on influence of other children. I think it’s vital for kids to be around other kids and to interact with them. The reason I say so strongly–and perhaps rudely–comments about 12-year olds not being excellent examples is in reaction to the most oft-repeated criticism of home education: “How will your children have any social skills?” I simply maintain that social skills are not well taught by kids, but by parents.

     I think the constricted environment of school without the intense personalization toward an individual’s needs is a recipe for disaster. In the early years (K – 3rd-ish?), there are few problems of social dynamics. But then the intense middle school years come and there’s something difficult that happens in the school social dynamic. I don’t quite understand why.

     Worse, I think “adolescents” are trapped in an artificial environment where there’s little to no meaning in anything they do. So, at the very time when they biologically are ready to establish their own household and tackle real challenges, they’re stuck in a seat in a prison. I think this is at least an influence on a lot of really negative behaviors.

     I just don’t see any reason to subject a child to all the negative of school in order to get some of the benefits of being with other kids at lunchtime and perhaps recess (do they still call it that?).

     Ask most home-educated kids and there’s never a shortage of social interaction. One of the great benefits is that if you’re educated at home you usually have a much shorter school day. (I think the current school day is artificially lengthened so parents don’t have to arrange child care. One of the major purposes of school is state-subsidized childcare.) This leads to loads of time for being with other kids.

     When I was growing up, we did school from 8am to noon. I then spent every afternoon with my buddies having adventures.

     Free association in play is different than forced association in school. As adults, we freely associate with people we want to. Even in college, notice how different the social dynamic is than the forced association of primary school.

     I also agree with you about the different cultures. I hope to expose my son to a broad array of cultures. I think we’ll do that by traveling internationally, working here at home in urban poor environments, etc. Most home educated kids I know seem to have far more empathy for others because they’ve never had to figure out their “status.” They just accept other people.

     Finally, I agree with you about reaching out to the “undesirables” of society. You are correct that Christians should be very active to reach the lost in every part of society.

     However, I do not think young children are to be evangelists. Children are in training. They can learn alongside the parents as the parents reach out in the place that they are (following Jesus’ example). But they are not prepared yet. If you’re interested, I went back and found an essay that I read that brings this point out well: http://americanvision.org/11003/challies-on-home-schooling-a-credibility-problem/
     

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     • 

       ChrisEE on November 20, 2014 at 6:12 am

       Joshua,

       Thanks for the detailed reply. You have interesting insights. I didn’t mean to imply that I would expect to have my child “saving” the other kids at the lunch table. Probably a poor choice of wording on my part. I don’t have much experience with anyone who home schools. However, my experience being contracted to work in a private catholic school for a number of years and my wife’s experience having gone to one for many years is that many parents send their kids there much less for the education or religious aspects and much more because of a sense of elitism (and probably a fair touch of racism thrown in). I think that my public school education had some serious flaws but that aspect of dealing with a wide variety of people from different backgrounds has served me extremely well in my career and life. I certainly see your point that it is not the only way to gain those experiences though.

       A little feedback on your website. I like to go back to the show notes and click on links that interest me b/c I usually listen to your shows in my car in a kind of random order. The new layout makes it much harder to find them in the archives instead of on the front page. I would imagine a more casual fan stopping by the site has no idea you even do that. Also, I do sometimes listen at work over lunch or if a period of down time. The new player you have imbedded on the front page makes it nearly impossible to rewind if I miss something or forget to pause the show and want to go back or forward to where I left off. Any reason for the change and are you married to the current player. I think the older was actually better.

       Cheers!
       Chris
       

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       • 

         Joshua Sheats on November 21, 2014 at 1:22 pm

         Thanks, Chris. I agree with you regarding the elitism. There are some local private schools where I live that are very elitist due to the big-money atmosphere. I would be uncomfortable with my child adopting the attitude of that atmosphere. I’d probably make the same choice you would.

         My sister had a really neat experience in high school (she’s white) of going to a predominately black (maybe 75%? I’m guessing.) public school here in WPB. She learned a lot from being the minority white girl.

         It seems to me that racism and xenophobia are caught and taught by those in our lives. Have to be careful who we are exposed to.

         Thanks for the suggestions on the site. I’ll change it back soon. That was simply my attempt to help all the iTunes subscribers that I lost find their way back!

         Joshua
         

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